Swami Vivekananda
The Complete Works: Volume VIPage 1 of 1

Conversations and Dialogues

VIII

(Translated from Bengali)

(From the Diary of a Disciple)

[Place: Calcutta. Year: 1897, March or April.]

Today the disciple came to meet Swamiji at Baghbazar, but found him ready for a visiting engagement. “Well, come along with me”, were the words with which Swamiji accosted him as he went downstairs, and the disciple followed. They then put themselves into a hired cab which proceeded southwards.

Disciple: Sir, where are you going to visit, please?

Swamiji: Well, come with me and you will see.

Thus keeping back the destination from the disciple, Swamiji opened the following conversation as the carriage reached the Beadon Street: One does not find any real endeavour in your country to get the women educated. You, the men, are educating yourselves to develop your manhood, but what are you doing to educate and advance those who share all your happiness and misery, who lay down their lives to serve you in your homes?

Disciple: Why, sir, just see how many schools and colleges have sprung up nowadays for our women, and how many of them are getting degrees of B.A. and M.A.

Swamiji: But all that is in the Western style. How many schools have been started on your own national lines, in the spirit of your own religious ordinances? But alas, such a system does not obtain even among the men of your country, what to speak of women! It is seen from the official statistics that only three or four per cent of the people in India are educated, and not even one per cent of the women.

Otherwise, how could the country come to such a fallen condition? How can there be any progress of the country without the spread of education, the dawning of knowledge? Even no real effort or exertion in the cause is visible among the few in your country who are the promise of the future, you who have received the blessings of education. But know for certain that absolutely nothing can be done to improve the state of things, unless there is spread of education first among the women and the masses. And so I have it in my mind to train up some Brahmachārins and Brahmachārinis, the former of whom will eventually take the vow of Sannyāsa and try to carry the light of education among the masses, from village to village, throughout the country, while the latter will do the same among women. But the whole work must be done in the style of our own country. Just as centres have to be started for men, so also centres have to be started for teaching women. Brahmachārinis of education and character should take up the task of teaching at these different centres. History and the Purānas, housekeeping and the arts, the duties of home-life and principles that make for the development of an ideal character have to be taught with the help of modern science, and the women students must be trained up in ethical and spiritual life. We must see to their growing up as ideal matrons of home in time. The children of such mothers will make further progress in the virtues that distinguish the mothers. It is only in the homes of educated and pious mothers that great men are born. And you have reduced your women to something like manufacturing machines; alas, for heaven’s sake, is this the outcome of your education? The uplift of the women, the awakening of the masses must come first, and then only can any real good come about for the country, for India.

Near Chorebagan Swamiji gave it out to the disciple that the foundress of the Mahākāli Pāthashālā, the Tapasvini Mātāji (ascetic mother), had invited him to visit her institution. When our carriage stopped at its destination, three or four gentlemen greeted Swamiji and showed him up to the first floor. There the Tapasvini mother received him standing. Presently she escorted him into one of the classes, where all the maidens stood up in greeting. At a word from Mātāji all of them commenced reciting the Sanskrit meditation of Lord Shiva with proper intonation. Then they demonstrated at the instance of the Mother how they were taught the ceremonies of worship in their school. After watching all this with much delight and interest, Swamiji proceeded to visit the other classes. After this, Mātāji sent for some particular girl and asked her to explain before Swamiji the first verse of the third canto of Kālidāsa’s Raghuvamsham, which she did in Sanskrit. Swamiji expressed his great appreciation of the measure of success Mātāji had attained by her perseverance and application in the cause of diffusing education among women. In reply, she said with much humility, “In my service to my students, I look upon them as the Divine Mother; well, in starting the school I have neither fame nor any other object in view.”

Being asked by Mātāji, Swamiji recorded his opinion about the institution in the Visitors’ Book, the last line of which was: “The movement is in the right direction.”

After saluting Mātāji, Swamiji went back to his carriage, which then proceeded towards Baghbazar, while the following conversation took place between Swamiji and the disciple.

Swamiji: How far is the birthplace of this venerable lady! She has renounced everything of her worldly life, and yet how diligent in the service of humanity! Had she not been a woman, could she ever have undertaken the teaching of women in the way she is doing? What I saw here was all good, but that some male householders should be pitchforked as teachers is a thing I cannot approve of. The duty of teaching in the school ought to devolve in every respect on educated widows and Brahmachārinis. It is good to avoid in this country any association of men with women’s schools.

Disciple: But, sir, how would you get now in this country learned and virtuous women like Gārgi, Khanā, or Lilāvati?

Swamiji: Do you think women of the type don’t exist now in the country? Still on this sacred soil of India, this land of Sitā and Sāvitri, among women may be found such character, such spirit of service, such affection, compassion, contentment, and reverence, as I could not find anywhere else in the world! In the West, the women did not very often seem to me to be women at all, they appeared to be quite the replicas of men! Driving vehicles, drudging in offices, attending schools, doing professional duties! In India alone the sight of feminine modesty and reserve soothes the eye! With such materials of great promise, you could not, alas, work out their uplift! You did not try to infuse the light of knowledge into them. If they get the right sort of education, they may well turn out to be the ideal women in the world.

Disciple: Do you think, sir, the same consummation would be reached through the way Mātāji is educating her students? These students would soon grow up and get married and would presently shade into the likeness of all other women of the common run. So I think, if these girls might be made to adopt Brahmacharya, then only could they devote their lives to the cause of the country’s progress and attain to the high ideals preached in our sacred books.

Swamiji: Yes, everything will come about in time. Such educated men are not yet born in this country, who can keep their girls unmarried without fear of social punishment. Just see how before the girls exceed the age of twelve or thirteen, people hasten to give them away in marriage out of this fear of their social equals. Only the other day, when the Age of Consent Bill was being passed, the leaders of society massed together millions of men to send up the cry “We don’t want the Bill.” Had this been in any other country, far from getting up meetings to send forth a cry like that, people would have hidden their heads under their roofs in shame, that such a calumny could yet stain their society.

Disciple: But, sir, I don’t think the ancient law-givers supported this custom of early marriage without any rhyme or reason. There must have been some secret meaning in this attitude of theirs.

Swamiji: Well, what might have been this secret meaning, please?

Disciple: Take it, for instance, in the first place that if the girls are married at an early age, they may come over to their husbands’ home to learn the particular ways and usages of the family from the early years of their life. They may acquire adequate skill in the duties of the household under the guidance of their parents-in-law. In the homes of their own parents, on the other hand, there is the likelihood of grown-up daughters going astray. But married early, they have no chance of thus going wrong, and over and above this, such feminine virtues as modesty, reserve, fortitude, and diligence are apt to develop in them.

Swamiji: In favour of the other side of the question, again, it may be argued that early marriage leads to premature child-bearing, which accounts for most of our women dying early; their progeny also, being of low vitality, go to swell the ranks of our country’s beggars! For if the physique of the parents be not strong and healthy, how can strong and healthy children be born at all? Married a little later and bred in culture, our mothers will give birth to children who would be able to achieve the real good of the country. The reason why you have so many widows in every home lies here, in this custom of early marriage. If the number of early marriages declines, that of widows is bound to follow suit.

Disciple: But, sir, it seems to me, if our women are married late in life, they are apt to be less mindful of their household duties. I have heard that the mothers-in-law in Calcutta very often do all the cooking, while the educated daughters-in-law sit idle with red paint round their feet! But in our East Bengal such a thing is never allowed to take place.

Swamiji: But everywhere under the sun you find the same blending of the good and the bad. In my opinion society in every country shapes itself out of its own initiative. So we need not trouble our heads prematurely about such reforms as the abolition of early marriage, the remarriage of widows, and so on. Our part of the duty lies in imparting true education to all men and women in society. As an outcome of that education, they will of themselves be able to know what is good for them and what is bad, and will spontaneously eschew the latter. It will not be then necessary to pull down or set up anything in society by coercion.

Disciple: What sort of education, do you think, is suited to our women?

Swamiji: Religion, arts, science, housekeeping, cooking, sewing, hygiene—the simple essential points in these subjects ought to be taught to our women. It is not good to let them touch novels and fiction. The Mahākāli Pāthashālā is to a great extent moving in the right direction. But only teaching rites of worship won’t do; their education must be an eye-opener in all matters. Ideal characters must always be presented before the view of the girls to imbue them with a devotion to lofty principles of selflessness. The noble examples of Sitā, Sāvitri, Damayanti, Lilāvati, Khanā, and Mirā should be brought home to their minds, and they should be inspired to mould their own lives in the light of these.

Our cab now reached the house of the late Bābu Balarām Bose at Baghbazar. Swamiji alighted from it and went upstairs. There he recounted the whole of his experience at the Mahākāli Pāthashālā to those who had assembled there to see him.

Then while discussing what the members of the newly formed Ramakrishna Mission should do, Swamiji proceeded to establish by various arguments the supreme importance of the “gift of learning” and the “gift of knowledge”.1 Turning to the disciple he said, “Educate, educate, ‘नान्य: पन्था विद्यतेऽयनाय—Than this there is no other way’.” And referring in banter to the party who do not favour educational propaganda, he said, “Well, don’t go into the party of Prahlādas!” Asked as to the meaning of the expression he replied, “Oh, haven’t you heard? Tears rushed out of the eyes of Prahlāda at the very sight of the first letter ‘Ka’ of the alphabet as it reminded him of Krishna; so how could any studies be proceeded with? But then the tears in Prahlāda’s eyes were tears of love, while your fools affect tears in fright! Many of the devotees are also like that.” All of those present burst out laughing on hearing this, and Swami Yogānanda said to Swamiji, “Well, once you have the urge within towards anything to be done, you won’t have any peace until you see the utmost done about it. Now what you have a mind to have done shall be done no doubt.”

Notes

  1. The allusion here is to the classification of various gifts, mentioned by Manu. ↩
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Contents

Lectures and Discourses
  1. The Methods and Purpose of Religion
  2. The Nature of the Soul and its Goal
  3. The Importance of Psychology
  4. Nature and Man
  5. Concentration and Breathing
  6. Introduction to Jnana-Yoga
  7. The Vedanta Philosophy and Christianity
  8. Worshipper and Worshipped
  9. Formal Worship
  10. Divine Love
Notes of Class Talks and Lectures
  1. Religion And Science
  2. Religion Is Realisation
  3. Religion Is Self-Abnegation
  4. Unselfish Work Is True Renunciation
  5. Freedom Of The Self
  6. Notes On Vedanta
  7. Hindu And Greek
  8. Thoughts On The Vedas And Upanishads
  9. On Raja-Yoga
  10. On Bhakti-Yoga
  11. On Jnana-Yoga
  12. The Reality And Shadow
  13. How To Become Free
  14. Soul And God
  15. The Goal
  16. On Proof Of Religion
  17. The Design Theory
  18. Spirit And Nature
  19. The Practice Of Religion
  20. Fragmentary Notes On The Ramayana
  21. Notes Taken Down In Madras, 1892-93
  22. Concentration
  23. The Power Of The Mind
  24. Lessons On Raja-Yoga
  25. Lessons On Bhakti-Yoga
  26. Mother-Worship
  27. Narada-Bhakti-Sutras
Writings: Prose and Poems
  1. Historical Evolution of India
  2. The Story of the Boy Gopala
  3. My Play Is Done
  4. The Cup
  5. A Benediction
  6. The Hymn of Creation
  7. On the Sea's Bosom
  8. Hinduism and Shri Ramakrishna
  9. The Bengali Language
  10. Matter for Serious Thought
  11. Shiva's Demon
Epistles: Second Series
  1. 1. Leaving Ayodhya I have reached the holy Vrindavan
  2. 2. Twice did Gangādhar ascend up to Tibet and Bhutan.
  3. 3. A full measure of proficiency in the Vedic language is impossible without first mastering Pānini’s grammar
  4. 4. He must be made of stone whose mind does not melt at the sight of Kashi and its Lord!
  5. 5. You have hit Ramakrishna in the right point.
  6. 6. My health is passable, but the state of mind is terrible!
  7. 7. One has to suffer at times for holding in one’s brain novel views of all sorts.
  8. 8. One may attain to the knowledge of Brahman without having studied the ceremonial parts of the Vedas.
  9. 9. For all time my head shall bend low in reverence wherever I see greatness, broadness of heart, and holiness
  10. 10. When a pitcher is being filled (by immersion), it gurgles, but when full, it is noiseless
  11. 11. Gangādhar’s blood won’t cool down before seeing Lhasa.
  12. 12. I can’t appreciate your citing Spencer’s parody on the German transcendentalists
  13. 13. My resolve is something like “either to lay down my life or realise my ideal”
  14. 14. Please inquire and inform me whether the Kumbha fair this year is going to be held at Hardwar or not.
  15. 15. “Lord have mercy”, is all right, but He helps him who helps himself.
  16. 16. In this land of Bhagavān Shuka’s birth, renunciation is looked down upon as madness and sin!
  17. 17. It is so very difficult to meet the Bābāji.
  18. 18. Unless one is face to face with the life of such men, faith in the scriptures does not grow in all its real integrity.
  19. 19. No trouble taken for the sake of such a great soul can ever go unrewarded.
  20. 20. Such amazing endurance and humility I have never seen
  21. 21. I am greatly suffering from lumbago.
  22. 22. The sons of my Master are indeed the great objects of my service
  23. 23. what the Lord Buddha has designated as Prajnāpāra—the transcendental—if such there be, I want that alone.
  24. 24. The mind does not find rest here any longer
  25. 25. The great conclusion is that Ramakrishna has no peer
  26. 26. I too shall be off to Prayag.
  27. 27. My motto is to learn whatever good things I may come across anywhere.
  28. 28. Gagan Bābu with whom I am putting up, is an exceedingly courteous, noble, and generous-minded man.
  29. 29. Bless me that I may have the most unflinching patience and perseverance.
  30. 30. I shall be drawn up to the hills by the attraction I have for Hrishikesh
  31. 31. If ever I get this true renunciation, I shall let you know
  32. 32. Do please pray for me to Vishvanātha that He may grant me strength
  33. 33. I am Ramakrishna’s slave, having laid my body at his feet “with Til and Tulasi leaves”
  34. 34. We should go on striving and striving even unto death.
  35. 35. Try to be pure and unselfish­—that is the whole of religion.
  36. 36. My children, the secret of religion lies not in theories but in practice.
  37. 37. You must go on with your Japa whatever direction the mind takes.
  38. 38. For us is only submission, calm and perfect.
  39. 39. Please read the Gitā every day to the best of your opportunity.
  40. 40. American women befriended me, gave me shelter and food, took me to their homes and treated me as their own son, their own brother.
  41. 41. The whole American nation loves and respects me, pays my expenses, and reveres me as a Guru.
  42. 42. She wants to work apart from all religions to ameliorate the conditions of women
  43. 43. May even the dust of the world never touch you
  44. 44. Stick to God! Who cares what comes to the body or to anything else!
  45. 45. It won’t do merely to call Shri Ramakrishna an Incarnation, you must manifest power.
  46. 46. A Hindu son never lends to his mother, but the mother has every right over the son
  47. 47. Think all of you that you are the infinitely powerful Ātman, and see what strength comes out.
  48. 48. I can bundle myself up anywhere and feel quite comfortable
  49. 49. Courage! Everything will come about by degrees.
  50. 50. The American women, as everywhere, came to my rescue
  51. 51. Everything will come right if you are pure and sincere
  52. 52. Are you progressing morally, spiritually, and in your worldly affairs?
  53. 53. Honesty is the best policy, and a virtuous man must gain in the end
  54. 54. I want no name—I want to be a voice without a form.
  55. 55. We must work, and this cannot be done by merely sitting idle.
  56. 56. This is a place for action, not enjoyment, and everyone will go home when his task is done
  57. 57. In New York I find more men interested in religion than in any other city
  58. 58. Start centres at different places.
  59. 59. When it comes to doing something I want, they are nowhere.
  60. 60. An immediate work at hand should always have the preference
  61. 61. We must plunge heart and soul and body into the work
  62. 62. In the tiger and in the lamb, in the saint and sinner all He!
  63. 63. See that cooking and drinking water be filtered
  64. 64. Always evil comes out of laziness
  65. 65. This gentleman is the chief citizen of Madras and a Judge of the Supreme Court
  66. 66. Though the attendance is large, it does not even pay enough to cover the rent
  67. 67. I go into the forest alone and read my Gitā and am quite happy
  68. 68. All is for good. All conjunctions are for subsequent disjunction.
  69. 69. To me, the thought of oneself as low and humble is a sin and ignorance
  70. 70. I got up an idea of making books out of the bark
  71. 71. From the day Shri Ramakrishna was born dates the growth of modern India and of the Golden Age.
  72. 72. The first requisite for organisation is obedience.
  73. 73. Know partiality to be the chief cause of all evil
  74. 74. Wherever you can, open a centre.
  75. 75. In this Satya-Yuga the tidal wave of Shri Ramakrishna’s Love has unified all.
  76. 76. Why not wear one’s country-dress, as befits gentlemen?
  77. 77. Why look up to men for approbation, look up to God!
  78. 78. Those who are protected by the Lord must be above fear.
  79. 79. Purity, perseverance, and energy—these three I want
  80. 80. “Avoid not and seek not—wait for what the Lord sends”, is my motto.
  81. 81. When an Englishman takes up a thing, he goes to its very depths.
  82. 82. All great things must of necessity be slow.
  83. 83. I trust those that will not desert me in prosperity and adversity alike.
  84. 84. I am translating a little book on Bhakti with Mr. Sturdy with copious commentaries
  85. 85. Householders of poor means take to various tricks to supply their wants.
  86. 86. I sail by the Britannic on Wednesday, the 27th.
  87. 87. Even if the nation is spiritually poor, it aspires for physical freedom.
  88. 88. The supply must follow the demand, and the demand alone.
  89. 89. Will be glad to lecture before the Harvard Philosophical Club as requested.
  90. 90. Higher direction and not destruction is the law.
  91. 91. Oh, the grief! If I could get two or three like me, I could have left the world convulsed.
  92. 92. Want of sympathy and lack of energy are at the root of all misery
  93. 93. I have worked my best. If there is any seed of truth in it, it will come to life.
  94. 94. What you need is only obedience
  95. 95. I am suffering from slight fever the last two days
  96. 96. I like very much to foster this sort of adventurous spirit among my countrymen
  97. 97. The masses will always have the person, the higher ones the principle; we want both
  98. 98. Above all, his reverence for Ramakrishna Paramahamsa is extreme
  99. 99. In America alone there is that something in the air which brings out whatever is best in every one
  100. 100. We want organisation. Organisation is power, and the secret of this is obedience.
  101. 101. Send Kāli to England as soon as you get this letter.
  102. 102. Beyond, beyond reason and learning and talking is the feeling, the “Love”, the “Beloved”
  103. 103. The English people are very generous.
  104. 104. I want to forget the world entirely at least for the next two months and practise hard. That is my rest.
  105. 105. I want to start a Math at Almora or near Almora rather.
  106. 106. It is for the sinful that the Lord manifests Himself specially, not so much for the virtuous.
  107. 107. Who works? Whose work? There is no world. It is God Himself. In delusion we call it world.
  108. 108. Perfect life is a contradiction in terms
  109. 109. My natural tendency is to go into a cave and be quiet
  110. 110. Great freedom with great law-abidingness.
  111. 111. Specification of work is absolutely necessary. Our special branch is to preach Vedānta.
  112. 112. I am a socialist not because I think it is a perfect system, but half a loaf is better than no bread.
  113. 113. The first edition of Rāja-Yoga is sold out
  114. 114. We want a whole hill, with a view of the snow-range, all to ourselves
  115. 115. Can anything be done unless everybody exerts himself to his utmost?
  116. 116. I am going to start a centre in Calcutta and another in the Himalayas
  117. 117. I intend to return to the U.S. and to Europe thence in about a year.
  118. 118. My idea is to start on a very small scale. I do not know anything yet.
  119. 119. The mind is more powerful than the body.
  120. 120. Tomorrow we reach Rome
  121. 121. My journey has been a huge procession—crowds of people, illuminations, addresses, etc.,
  122. 122. The more the opposition, the more the demon in me is roused.
  123. 123. On metaphysical lines no nation on earth can hold a candle to the Hindus
  124. 124. All caste either on the principle of birth or of merit is bondage.
  125. 125. In all the Vedas illumination alone is the concern
  126. 126. Even my wicked deeds were not for self.
  127. 127. We have been able fearlessly to preach our Vedantic doctrines both in India and England.
  128. 128. Work, work, work, even unto death!
  129. 129. Buy all the good scientific books that you can have in Bengali, and have them read.
  130. 130. Let Memorial Halls and things of that kind go to the dogs.
  131. 131. Never worry about money.
  132. 132. Do not mix in politics etc., nor have any connection with them.
  133. 133. You ought to know from the first that India is the dirtiest and unhealthiest hole in the world
  134. 134. This Kashmir is a veritable heaven on earth.
  135. 135. What one does has no destruction—no, never.
  136. 136. In our country we at present need manhood and kindness.
  137. 137. Victory to the Lord!—To work! To work!
  138. 138. Come out, man! No sleeping all life; time is flying.
  139. 139. Duty must be done first.
  140. 140. Any least trouble undergone, is bound to produce its excellent results.
  141. 141. Be of good cheer. “Never a worker of good came to grief.”
  142. 142. Hinduism and Islam—Vedānta brain and Islam body—is the only hope.
  143. 143. Things go on all right whether we lend them our helping hands or not.
  144. 144. The Mother is our guide and whatever happens or will happen is under Her ordination.
  145. 145. You are appointed by the Mother to watch over my life
  146. 146. Two years of physical suffering have taken away twenty years of my life.
  147. 147. Mother knows best, that is all about me.
  148. 148. Suffering is the lot of the world’s best and bravest
  149. 149. This sort of nervous body is just the instrument to play great music at times
  150. 150. If the Lord has made me His hack to work and die on the streets, let Him have it.
  151. 151. Mother is working it up. She cannot let me go before Her work is done
  152. 152. We are all sacrifices—each in his own way.
  153. 153. One road is quite as good as the other.
  154. 154. The more heart you will be able to manifest, the greater will be the victory you achieve
  155. 155. To become fearless, to be daring, to be careless of everything!
  156. 156. My dreams are breaking. Om Tat Sat!
  157. 157. The seed must die underground to come up as the tree
  158. 158. I have bundled my things and am waiting for the great deliverer.
  159. 159. Mother seems to be kind again and the wheel is slowly rising up.
  160. 160. Mother knows, as I always say. Pray to Mother.
  161. 161. You must know once for all, I am born without jealousy
  162. 162. Who cares for great things? Why not do small things as well?
  163. 163. “Chutney is the thing”, said a voice near the door.
  164. 164. I am surely coming this evening and of course
  165. 165. Two great Englishmen gave up their lives for us—us the Hindus.
  166. 166. Everything is green and gold, and the grass is like velvet
  167. 167. Occasion never found me low yet; Mother will not make me now depressed.
  168. 168. We all work by bits, that is to say, in this cause.
Conversations and Dialogues
  1. I
  2. II
  3. III
  4. IV
  5. V
  6. VI
  7. VII
  8. VIII
  9. IX
  10. X
  11. XI
  12. XII